We’re really pleased that we have today been able to published the guidance we promised about the recording of social workers by parents where there is local authority involvement with the family. The guidance is intended to be used by parents and their advisers and representatives, and by professionals – who might include social workers, social work managers, independent reviewing officers and local authority lawyers.
Readers may recall that earlier this year, we sent Freedom of Information Act requests to all local authorities in England and Wales to establish whether there was a consistent approach when parents ask to record their meetings with social workers. This project was prompted by discussion generated at the Child Protection conference organised by The Transparency Project in June, when the topic of parents recording their interaction with social workers was raised by participants. We thought there was lots of misunderstanding and a lack of clarity. You can read about that here and here.
The responses to the FOI requests demonstrated that the attitude and approach of local authorities varied considerably. Reasons given for refusing to permit recording were not always underpinned by a correct understanding of the law. In addition, there appeared to be some evidence of a culture of suspicion, fear or hostility by professionals towards parents who wished to record their interactions, particularly where such recordings were covert (or suspected).
Having considered the responses to the FOIs we thought clear basic guidance would be really helpful for both professionals and parents, so that they can have informed discussions about the issue of recording and the underlying anxieties that may have led to the issue arising, so that appropriate arrangements based on the individual circumstances can be agreed.
In the guidance we explore the question of recording from the perspective of parents and professionals, and consider reasons for and against recording, including some common misapprehensions about what law does and does not apply. It includes general information about the potential issues arising from use of any recording, for example the distribution of a recording on the internet or the use of it in evidence at court. It is important to remember though, that it isn’t the same as legal advice – it is very general guidance.
We hope that you will use the document as a starting point or framework for discussions about these issues – and please let us know what you think of it, and how it might be improved. If you are one of the Local Authorities who indicated in your response that you were intending to review or develop policies in this area, or that our request had prompted discussions, we’d love to hear from you also.
Download the guidance. [Mar 18 : NB this now links to version 3 which contains some minor corrections]
Download our press release.
I often ask parents if they would like me to record interviews and assessments. As a professional, my preference would be to record on most occasions. Maintaining eye contact and rapport is important for me and I find taking written notes can impact on this. One of the considerations for me as a professional, and for parents, are whether they feel able to be more open or feel more aware of scrutiny when there is a verbatim recording.
I am not a social worker, I am a psychologist carrying out assessments for Family Proceedings. My awareness of the issues arose out of my work with children and adults with specific learning difficulties. Audio recordings for many people are a reasonable adjustment for a disability. Irrespective of whether someone considers themself to have a disability, very few people can recall verbatim lengthy conversations. I, myself, record important personal meetings such as consultations with health professionals as I am aware that I may miss something important, or misconstrue given information due to the entirely natural stresses inherent in such consultations.
Thanks Dr Whitcombe.
I read with interest the comment by Dr Sue Whitcombe, and found it uplifting, given my own selfish interests, and the backlog and overload of cases here in Western Australia. This is the 21st century, my little experience in the UK, is of corporates and banks openly and frankly recording conversations and meetings. Next month, my case will have been going for seven years, in the Children’s Court, Care and Protection. The most relevant Act, passed by Parliament, over ten years ago, incorporates minimal, if any, protection for the ongoing relationship between the child and parents, and no penalties for Child Protection workers, or Child Legal Representatives, misleading the Court. The legal profession is laboriously resistant to change, and transparency in particular. So much for legislation being in the primary interests of the most important party, the child. Australia does not willingly embrace human rights legislation. Yes, Western Australia is a great State to live in, a State of great beauty, beaches, scenery and weather, but tediously slow to comprehend transparency, voluntary disclosure, file notes and enthusiasm for authentic, ethical practices in Child Protection.
Please note that the the WA legislation necessitates non disclosure of my name, to protect my child being identified, so please suppress my name, with an appropriate comment.
[ED : DULY ANONYMISED!]
I have a couple of points for you as I read this early this morning and have taken a further look this evening.
1) You have asked about Data Protection Act 1997 on page 7 of the guidance. Do you mean Data Protection Act 1998?
2) I know that this is specifically child protection case but is it possible that this could crossover into case in relation to Adult Social Services and care for the elderly where there are multiple family members trying to work together for their elderly relative?
Fantastic document and great work guys….
Hello Tim,
You are correct – there was a typo. We meant 1998, but I have now amended this. Thanks for spotting!
I think it could have implications in adult social care – in fact one of the areas where we thought there was better awareness was where it was understood that adults (parents) had their own disability needs that impacted on motor skills for note taking, memory or understanding – it was understood by some local authorities that parents might have their own needs and that the Equality Act might apply. There are of course lots of vulnerabilities of participants in such meetings which don’t always relate to physical or mental capacity or disability but to context and power dynamics.
What if a Social Worker tells their employer they do not wish to be recorded? The DWP seem to allow it’s Civil Servants an option not to be recorded “Another member of staff who is less concerned about being recorded can conduct the interview.” https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/recording_meetings_at_jobcentres#incoming-470309 Though with allocated Social Workers this would be far from practical.
I think this is one reason why Local Authorities need clear guidance.
This is something I greatly welcome,
A serious concern I have had over the years is that parents often find it hard to understand the paperwork given to them which most often than not includes minutes of meetings and most importantly Looked After Children’s reviews and so forth, lacking the understanding can cause further anxieties,
Having the ability to record and the parent to then playback in their own time is without a doubt be something that would give the parents a greater understanding of the problems and issues they face.
Further and a not too often commented issue is that I have met many parents who suffer with sever dyslexia and can often struggle to read anything that is quite literally printed on black and white, I had often raised this issue with previous case work and only one of the Local Authorities accepted that printing black on white made it impossible for the parent to read, they changed the colour of the paper which went to some lengths to help the parent understand however it did not resolve the problem entirely,often other professionals would forget what we had put in place regarding the printing of paperwork.
Finally I would say that parents from diverse backgrounds may not speak English as their mother tongue, they should quite rightly have an interpreter present at the meetings explaining the situation to be able to listen back to the recordings of the meetings in their own homes will be another positive step forward.
It is not always the “Proving” of points, or “things” said at the meetings, it should not always be looked upon negatively by professionals when a parent seeks to record.
More often than not recording a meeting is necessary and I have given just a couple of examples why, there are more positive reasons and personally I feel that there should be more of a cross the board set of guidelines or policies, rather than leaving each individual L.A to set their own.
Greetings. Before this month closes, I would like to ‘write up’ this clear guidance in a discussion thread I originated a few years at the Consumer Action Group website under the handle ‘nolegion’. The thread concerns itself (largely) with patients who want to audio-record their consultations with NHS doctors, but, for instance, your list of reasons (on page 4) why parents might wish to record social workers is a VERY close match to the set of reasons in relation to doctors I have taken note of from patients, many times, over the years. Indeed, if one substituted ‘to share with\get support from family and close friends’, for the ‘to catch out or gather evidence for later use in legal proceedings’ item, the correspondence would be pretty much exact.
I have one question to ask before I set about this; is the case name and citation given (on page 6) concerning ‘a mother who made secret recordings etc’ really accurate? It seems to me to lead to a case in which, amongst a volume of other evidence, there was an answerphone recording (considered by the Judge perhaps to be have been accidentally taken) of ambiguous import. But nothing much seems to have turned on it, and the report doesn’t otherwise seem to resemble your summary. Was there e.g. a later stage to this case which I have yet to find?
I would most grateful for clarification. (Hint: a link I could click on in your response, should I be fortunate enough to receive one, would be most helpful!)
Further lucubration now suggests the reference to:
Re L (A Child) [2015] EWFC B148
should read:
Medway Council v A & Ors (Learning Disability; Foster Placement) [2015] EWFC B66
( http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/OJ/2015/B66.html )
Hello nolegion – I think you may be right. I’m not sure how that happened! I need to check it out when I have a minute to look properly and will amend the note to correct it – and upload again.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Lucy
nolegion – thank you. I have now looked at this and you were correct, it was a duff link. I have amended the guidance note and uploaded v2.
Hello, what is the legal approach to take to bring this matter to be discussed in parliament to achieve law on this, not just guidance? In my experience, ” Guidance” seems to be a loop hole that allows professionals to not follow policies and procedures, as the p&p are deemed just ” guides” to follow, and not law abiding. Thank you.
Thanks for your comment Eve. The Transparency Project is an independent charity and has no status to enforce any guidance, nor can we campaign for political change. I think what you are talking about is ‘statutory guidance’ which is issued by government and which local authorities should follow unless they can justify not doing so in the particular case.
Thanks for your comment Anonnimiss Eve. The Transparency Project is an independent charity and has no status to enforce any guidance, nor can we campaign for political change. I think what you are talking about is ‘statutory guidance’ which is issued by government and which local authorities should follow unless they can justify not doing so in the particular case.
I’ve been recording all meeting at our home with social worker, through that we’ve got a evidence that she did lied to us, and we cannot use it as a evidence in our defence … what to do? How to proceed it this case?? Thank you
Hello, We’ve edited your name out for confidentiality reasons. I’m afraid The TP does not give legal advice and even if we could you haven’t provided enough information for us to be able to say anything useful. We can only suggest that if you are in court proceedings (it sounds from your message as if you are) you ask your lawyer for advice about this. Sometimes recordings are admitted in evidence, sometimes not – but your lawyer will be able to tell you what the situation in your case is.
Lucy
I had a nightmare of of a time some years back,the meetings my partner and i attended were a waste of time, the min taker would never are down anything i had to say. This went on for over a year, so i told them i was going to start recording them,i was told this was illegal, but things changed after this and they were out of our lives. But years on im involved again and i dont want any mistakes, false statments or anything getting in the way of the reason why they got involved, i would like clarification on my right to record meetings, i understand no one likes being recorded but if the only records being kept are thiers they could say anything. The only way to restore confidence in the publics view of the sc is to have an independant min taker at the meetings, someone who can write the truth. I would just like to know my rights.
Phil, Thanks for your comment. I’m afraid we don’t give legal advice. Our guidance is just that, general guidance not advice. Sorry not to be of more help.
What is the point of guidance that has no legal basis?
In order to give guidance on a subject, you have to be aware of the legal ramifications of following the advice in that guidance, otherwise someone following that advice may unwittingly break the law. The guidance would then be morally if not legally responsible.
OED definition of Guidance:
NOUN
1.advice or information aimed at resolving a problem or difficulty, especially as given by someone in authority.
“he looked to his father for inspiration and guidance”
synonyms: advice · counsel · direction · instruction · teaching · counselling ·
The Transparency Project is very clear in the guide that it is intended to help people, not direct them. We always write about what we believe the correct law to be because we are trying to make the law clearer but we are in no position to offer individual legal advice or to tell people what to do. If our guides are not helpful, we welcome constructive feedback for improvements, but we can’t make anything we write enforceable.
The main reason in my opinion as to why parents record or wish to record meetings with social workers for example is not for the issue of remembering what was said but for truthfulness and honesty, bearing in mind these people are well known for lying, twisting the facts and details of situations and inventing evidence as well as manipulating. This also applies to the other ‘professionals’ involved. A parent relating details of an event at which they were present or giving information and then reports that resemble nothing like what they said but which is/are accepted as fact even when challenged and shows there is a need for recordings to be made, the reason for the introduction of the recording of police interviews with suspects or witnesses. Like many other parents dealing with these people, I have substantial experience of this. SS obtained a care order based on numerous lies told by all the ‘professionals’ involved, the guardian and the child psychologist lying to further support the sws’ case against me. I am not the only parent this has happened to; it has been happening for years. Records, even covert ones, should be accepted by judges who will then see how much these people lie, although I suspect they already know. I would be suspicious of any ‘professional’ did not want to be recorded. As they say – “If you have nothing to hide…”
BD – name edited to avoid inadvertently identfying any child.
Anonymously, I was Gas Lit, by the SS, and when I did ask to Record the meetings, etc…. I was told Absolutely Not!!
I had to complain about the Lies and all the sheer volume of of meetings etc.. They used to keep me “Off Balance”, and they even suggested that I was insane….
The Doctor who examined me, wasn’t able to prove insanity, but he decided, in 15mins of speaking to me, that I wouldn’t co-operate with the the SS.
I thank you to keep me Anon Please.
Please forgive my grammar etc in my previous comment, it didn’t come out very well.
would you be able to record copied of paperwork at the meeting? does this amount to the same?
Can a parent ask for an interview of their child with CAFCASS to be recorded. Very often parents are not allowed to sit in and observe the interview hence cant make any notes etc or see how their child is being questioned.
That would be really helpful and a useful resource for our Children!!
A
Hi everyone,
I’m going to side step the ‘professionals’ aspect altogether. In my experience of over ten years of discrimination, erroneous recording of facts, lies and deceitfulness by a pack of people who call themselves health care professionals…. And yet here we are with laws that do not serves to offer any transparency but which serve to aid them in covering up and carrying out multiple other legal violations. In particular, the human Rights act.
If you knew my story it would shake you. I’m fed up of dealing with a bunch of morons who are responsible for acts of cruelty and abuse on my brother, born with learning disabilities and autism.
[edited]
What “transparency” are you talking about? The system rewards these bastards, they can tell fairy tales in court and that is evidence.
I’m making a campaign and petition. Facts need to be recorded by a third party and on a camera, free of human manipulation. All attendees must have a right to view and use it if it proves evidence of a civil or criminal wrong. You can’t afford immunity, that’s saying abuse is totally fine as long as you’re not the parents. No equality. Disgusting.
Will link the campaign when completed, please keep checking to parents. You are not alone.
We’ve edited your comment SA as it sounds as if there may be some privacy restrictions in place. To be sure we are not contravening any such restrictions we will not be able to publish any comment linking to the campaign either.
I’ve attended a meeting this week, I have 1 asd child and 1 suspect asd child who are struggling with issues, education, appointments etc , 1 school employee has lied, plus 2 social workers and a learning mentor have lied too in this weeks meeting which is going to have a detrimental effect on my family, when I questioned some of these things i’d might aswell have been bound and gagged sometimes a negative response, and sometimes silence, so called independent chair meeting was a social worker, I have been straight and said they are liars which has only encouraged more lies, parents ignored while professionals are trusted, I don’t feel I live in a democratic country any more, its heart rendering how me and my children have been spoken too in my own home is shocking and now they are saying its the other way round, I should have recorded everything, I havn’t a leg to stand on, forgot to mention, headmasters noe joined the lies club too, the whole system is corrupt,
Hi, I’ve taken your name out to protect your identity – Annie
So true x
SA, I for one feel that this would be a massive step forward!
I often record meetings with the local authority about my son’s special needs. The meetings are with the SEN department and are purely to discuss his disability and support requirements and we don’t discuss anything or anyone else.
I have resorted to recording covertly as I have been refused permission in the past. They often agree to things and then conveniently backtrack hence I started recording.
Could you confirm that it follows that I can record these and the LA cannot restrict me from recording the meetings so if they try and refuse the law is on my side? The recordings are, of course, for my personal use only and I use them to correct any erroneous minutes or to write the minutes when they “forget” to do so!
Hi SEN parent,
We don’t give legal advice about individual cases so can’t comment on your particular circumstances, but our guidance note sets out the broad principles that apply to recording meetings. Generally speaking there is no prohibition on a parent recording for personal use only.
You may not be surprised to hear that Cafcass FCAs are still not allowing the recording of meetings, but if you call the Cafcass main telephone number your call will be recorded without them telling you that they’re doing it or why they are recording.
So Cafcass are covertly recording calls, but refusing requests to record meetings.
Am l entitled to accompany a friend to a meeting with a social worker and a foster cared? After a month she has no written ,or any reasons why her children are not returned.
Hi, unless there is a court order in place, it’s not lawful to keep a child in foster care without parents’ consent. While we can’t advise on individual cases, your friend needs to instruct a solicitor who will be able to ask the local authority the right questions.
Just because it’s not Legal, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen!
When I recorded my social worker, she got her phone out and started to record me as well.
Also all the social workers were ignoring three kids locked in an attic for three years and the recording I have of the guardian cafcass are refusing to listen to.
As a professional myself be it in a different field I do not see why anyone would oppose to the recording of themselves as Social Workers. If you are a professional and uphold the honest, trust and integrity of the profession and you abide by the Law what are you so afraid of? Making mistakes? It’s not just about making the Social Worker toe the line so to speak… when you call the bank your recorded and so is the clerk, when you book a holiday they record that phone call to make sure if there is any disputes they can be rectified. But recording a Social Worker seems to be shrouded in some evil act to catch them out! I would say a child’s health and well being is far more important than where your seat is on the airplane… Full Transparency please